A Monday Mystery Motor. (UPDATE XI: Bianchi ! )
Scott Howard recently found this two lumps being a 4 cylinder engine and a gearbox. The engine is not very exciting at first sight, unless you say otherwise. Scott says the engine is approximately 1,5 litre. About 100mm stroke x 77mm bore. Lenghth 780mm. Width of crankcase 550mm. The motor number is #16697. On the gearbox (click here) he found no numbers at all. Still in our view it is the more interesting item with the gearshift nicely engineered outboard. Pre WWI is our rough Monday morning guess. But we rather listen to your thoughts. (photos Scott Howard)
Update XI comes again from Richard Unkles: I believe that this photo of a friend's 1922 Bianchi proves that the mystery engine/crankcase is indeed a Bianchi. These are a somewhat dated design as they still have a fixed head. As stated previously, the gearbox is certainly not Bianchi.
Update X by Richard Unkles: "...decidedly NOT Fiat. Certainly not a tipo 510 as they have 6 cylinders. Tipo 501/503 has 4 cylinders but has a single front engine mount as part of the sump. I suspect it is Bianchi, the engine mounts look correct and the placement of the drive for the Magneti Marelli magneto is in the correct place. Fiat 501/505/510 all drove their mags at right angles rather than in line. The gearbox may be Italian (not Fiat) as it looks like it accomodates a multiplate clutch, which was common for Fiat, but Bianchi gearboxes of the period of the crankcase is a separate unit from the engine and has a single plate clutch."
Update IX by Anthony James: "It is not a FIAT 510 motor. The 501 has a plate on the left hand side to axcess the tappets. There is no take off i.e. generator on the right hand side. the gear box is not a 501 either as it does not have an extension for the gearlever."
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Update VIII by David Barker: Is that a small multi-plate clutch inside the bellhousing? If it is it should narrow the field a bit.
Update VII by Mike Crehan: I do not think that this is a 1920s Fiat gearbox. The pedal cross shaft is like a Fiat but the inspection cover and gearbox lid are not like Fiat nor is the horizontal rib cast into the side of the gearbox. The clutch is similar to Fiat but the cast extension to the selector gate is not. Fiat mounted the gearlever on a chassis cross shaft with the handbrake lever. The gearlever shaft connected through a ball and socket to the selector arm on the side of the box (for 501 / 503 / 507 / 510 types). I think the 509 had a central ball change. Fiat also proudly stamped or cast their name into everything! Counting all the stampings on shafts and gears I would guess Fiat appears at least 10 times on the bits of a 501 gearbox. I wonder if it is from a Ceirano?
Update VI from Maurizio Tabucchi: The engine is a Fiat 501/503 (1920/1928). The gearbox is a 503.
Update V by Harit Tivedi: "The gear lever need not have been extenal, meaning outside the body of the car. In Fiat cars of 1920's, the gear lever was located on the right side, but inside the body panel. And the gear slots looked very similar as shown on the plate attched to the gearbox. If placed in an upright position, the gear lever movement would have been left and up for reverse, 1st and 2nd in the middle and the 3rd on the extreeme right. I do not remember if there were 3 or 4 speeds, though I have driven such cars on a couple of occasions. Looking at the gearbox, all I can say is that the gearbox for Fiat Tipo 509 has a similar lever rod going through the gear housing. But this gearbox, if at all a Fiat, would be of a larger car."
Update IV again by Bas de voogd who warns: "Even metric thread scan be misleading. As Wolseley took over a branch from the Fench Hotchkiss they employed metric treads for many British engine and gearbox parts up until 1939 !"
UPDATE III by Scott Howarth:"I checked the threads on gearbox ,they are metric."
Update II comes from Bas de Voogd: "Although it seems quite adventurous to have the gearlever on the outside, it has been normal practice for most cars to have the gearlever in board operated by your right hand. Imagine driving in cold weather and having to move your arm into the cold for shifting gears!"
UPDATE I by Ivan Saxton: "When trying to identify unknown car parts, checking the thread standard is useful, and finding whether Imperial or Metric measurements were used in manufacture.Engine and gearbox come from completely different cars. Engine is open flywheel with a drive spline for a coupling to a separately mounted gearbox. The gearbox has integral bellhousing to bolt onto a different engine. Curious thing might be what appears to be a multiplate clutch with toothed plates lined, of a type used in much larger size in American cars of the early 1920's such as Cadillac, Mercer, Twin Six Packard, and 4 cyl Stutz; but the gearbox is typically English or European. Clutch is quite different from the typical Hele-Shaw multiplate clutch, which had metal plates, often partly running in oil."
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